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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Dec 16, 2012 3:44pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: US Gun Law Reform - a conversation -

You've gotta start somewhere. The fact that are already so many assault weapons on our streets and in our homes is not a good reason to keep them legal. If I could write the law, there would be no grandfathering. People in possession of banned weapons would be obliged to turn them in or face arrest. You do acknowledge that weapons that will be used in future massacres may not have beeen purchased yet, right?

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Poster: littonracker Date: Dec 16, 2012 8:11pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: US Gun Law Reform - a conversation -

Norway has very strict gun laws. Didn't stop some nut-wad from murdering 80 plus people. There is no answer for this problem that will either make sense to some or work for others. Our government can't even guard our borders effectively and laws are gonna stop guns from streaming into the country? No form of prohibition will work in a free society. It's been tried and failed. Look at the miserable war on drugs. What a joke! There are more kids killed by drunk drivers in two weeks than this event but you don't see the government doing anything to stop it other than some silly vehicular homicide laws and a couple'a years in jail for those with a stupid lawyer. The most logical solution is a whole lot'a concealed weapon permits and teaching folks to use a gun. If we live with thousands killed annually by drunks we are gonna have to learn to live with some killed by retards with a gun.

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Dec 16, 2012 10:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: US Gun Law Reform - a conversation -

Norway has had exactly one mass shooting of that magnitude ever. One case is not a trend. It's an outlier. There is no single policy that can stop "everything." Norway is still dramatically safer and has dramatically fewer of these kinds of tragedies. No form of prohibition works? Look man, I'm all for legalizing weed and whatnot, but there are some things that simply cannot be allowed to fall into the wrong hands. As dangerous as driving is -- and I wish people did it far less -- it is a mover of the economy, a basic form of transportation. I hardly think automatic weapons is a good parallel in terms of public goodness. The solution is more guns! You folks are CRA-ZY.

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Dec 16, 2012 5:23pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: US Gun Law Reform - a conversation -

And you realize that future massacres may be stopped by firearms that have been purchased and are legally owned?

http://lonelyconservative.com/2012/12/citizen-with-concealed-carry-permit-may-have-save-lives-during-oregon-mall-shooting/

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Dec 16, 2012 7:06pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: US Gun Law Reform - a conversation -

Now if only those first graders were packing heat.

We'll never know if that guy really had any impact on the mall shooting. He obviously thinks he did. That's not really the point though. I'm sure we can find many other examples of heroes using guns. What I'm saying is that I'd rather ban guns than having a bunch of heavily armed people on the streets. That would make me feel safer. Practically every other civilized country in the world does it this way and people don't just feel safer - they ARE safer.

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Dec 16, 2012 8:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: US Gun Law Reform - a conversation -

Way to jump to the extreme to make no point. What if the teachers were?

Eyewitness accounts from Clackamas recount that when the gun jammed Meli approached the shooter with his weapon drwan. At which time the shooter ran to a stairwell and shot himself.

So, we do know he had an impact on the mall shooting. He in fact stopped it.

Since the guns are out, you can't ban them. I will not support anything that takes a firearm out of the hands of responsible owners like myself and KEEPS them in the hands of the bad guys. I will not yield any advantage or response capability.

I really don't give a shit what other countries do. I live here. Scotland would be okay because of the whisky trail, but I would insist upon keeping my shotguns.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Dec 16, 2012 9:59pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: US Gun Law Reform - a conversation -

Uh huh. If teachers were armed, it would be just ducky, cuz there have never been any mentally unbalanced teachers, or teachers with troubled kids, or teachers who get drunk and into a fight at home later ...

And given the shootings at malls and movie theaters, why not arm the mall clerks and popcorn sellers? Would people be safer then? Or should the guns just be in the crowd? I'm sure you're a responsible gun owner, but I'm picturing the average group of people at a mall or movie theater ... somehow I'm not feeling safer picturing more of them armed ...

Presumably someone who has a concealed carry permit does, in fact, go through some hoops, so that IS a type of gun control. Gun control is just laws related to guns, and obviously it's not working terribly well right now, and hasn't for a long time. So what's the best alternative? Status quo? Do nothing? More guns for all? Shouldn't it be possible for people who disagree to sit down and come up with better laws related to guns that might not make everyone happy but would be a good old-fashioned American compromise?

We can agree to disagree, but I'd really like lawmakers not to stop there, but to figure out how to work with that very really disagreement, and all the points on all sides, and come up with something better.


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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Dec 16, 2012 10:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: US Gun Law Reform - a conversation -

I hope that cherry picking anecdotes from here and there helps you sleep at night, but the fact is that sates with stricter gun control laws have fewer deaths from gun related violence. Period.

Think of it this way. If laws were strict enough to keep that crazy mofo from getting a gun in the first place, then there's no shooting and no need for your vigilante here to spring into action.

This post was modified by snow_and_rain on 2012-12-17 06:39:57

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Poster: Harpua22 Date: Dec 17, 2012 6:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: US Gun Law Reform - a conversation -

I am with you 100 percent. Don't really see where there's an argument here. There is no legitimate reason for a civilian to own assault weapons. If anyone on this thread can come up with a legitimate reason, feel free to share.

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Poster: oolu2 Date: Dec 17, 2012 9:34am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: US Gun Law Reform - a conversation -

you are a violent nation

walt disney cartoons are violent-i forbad them
your earliest movies have a gun and/or fight resolution
your movies since the silent films are violent
your video games are violent
you music vids re violent
and your use of f...ing indicates your violent too

what will you yanks do next arm your 5 yr olds?
a canadian sorting her conflicts out in peace

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Dec 17, 2012 7:26am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: US Gun Law Reform - a conversation -

Bullshit snow.

Take a look at homicide statistics for Chicago last summer, Camden or DC and get back to me about strict gun laws having any effectiveness other than making it harder for responsible owners to protect themselves.

What helps me sleep at night is my training and proficiency with what I hope to never have to use again in my life but will use in a heartbeat to protect my family.

Do you understand my perspective now? Your idea of strict, effective gun control is to ban them and take them out of the hands of responsible owners while keeping them in the hands of the fucking predators in society. That is unacceptable to me.

I'm done.

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Dec 17, 2012 7:56am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: US Gun Law Reform - a conversation -

Yes we understand your perspective, a selfish one from my POV. You are exceptionally trained, intelligent and sane - I can't confirm that for the other 40 million gun owners who own over 200 million guns. No one is suggesting taking them away from "responsible" owners - just putting safeguards in place to keep them away from irresponsible ones. This is a situation that demands the needs of the many supersede the needs of the few.

I'm glad you can sleep at night - recurring mass slaughter seems to be a status quo you can live with.

If we can register every vehicle, and educate, test and license every driver in the country, does it not make sense to do the same for guns and their owners?

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Poster: littonracker Date: Dec 17, 2012 4:56pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: US Gun Law Reform - a conversation -

It's against the law to drive drunk, yet tens of thousands of citizens are killed annually by drunk drivers, including a few thousand children. The governments ability to stop drugs, close the border and on and on is a record of failure and incompetence. There were DOT screeners at the 4 airports used by the 9/11 psychos and not ONE of them was discovered. Typical reaction: one nut had a bomb in his shoe, now every boarding passenger has to take off their shoes. The lesson is that everything can't be controlled in a society with 300+ million legal citizens (and uncounted millions of illegal ones)and freedom. However, we haven't tried what Hitler and Stalin did in their countries yet. Maybe that'll work.

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Dec 17, 2012 8:08am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: US Gun Law Reform - a conversation -

More cherry picking. Here's a nationwide study. Open your eyes Mando. I live in DC, by the way. Not the burbs, the city.

http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-laws-matter-2012-understanding-the-link-between-weak-laws-and-gun-violence/

By the way, the Supremes famously struck down DC's efforts to tighten gun laws. In other words, local efforts in my hometown to institute sane gun safety law,s were defeated by people who live behind electric fences in the burbs.

This post was modified by snow_and_rain on 2012-12-17 16:08:18

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Dec 17, 2012 6:20pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: US Gun Law Reform - a conversation -

Here's more for your cherry picking.

Given that my home in the US is also DC, I checked out the crime stats. DC murders last year were 132; in the US, over 14,748.

http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/dc/washington/crime/ (Unfortunately you can't check crime rates by neighborhood without subscribing, but maybe there are other sites.)

So, wow, almost 15,000. Given that I do think int'l comparison is relevant -- not definitive, but relevant -- I looked up the UK. Crime is at a 30 year low; 550 homicides last year.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18900384

OK, gotta adjust for population. That's just England plus Wales (roughly 56 million), so multiply by 6. We get 3300 (populated adjusted) vs 14-15,000. Then all that rape, robbery and assault in the US.

Compare that to this part from the UK, which is pretty interesting:

>There were 30,999 offences involving a knife or sharp instrument, a 5% decrease compared with 2010-11
Provisional data shows 5,911 firearm offences were recorded - 16% down - of which 39 resulted in a death

So yes, they get gun crime. But people are not mainly dying. And yes, they get crimes of anger with other weapons. But again, people are not mainly dying.

Anyway, speaking to the converted here, but I thought you might find those cherries interesting.